Part 3 – Passages used by Post-Tribulation Rapture holders in effort to support their claims
Below is the “short” list of passages that post-tribbers use as support for their claims:
Matthew 13:36-43, 24:13, 24:15-32, 24:43-44, 28:20; Luke 17:26-31; John 6:39-40, 6:44, 6:54, 11:24
1 Corinthians 15:23, 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:15-17. 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10, 2:1-4, 2:8
Revelation 11:15, 14:14-20, 20:4-5.
This is more for your benefit, listing the passages so that you can see what we are dealing with before we actually get into our full examination of them. Following we will give the complete passages, any quotes from post-tribulation web sites that we could find, and then a critique of whether or not what these people claim actually lines up with what Scripture teaches.
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Matthew 13:36-43 36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
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Post-tribulationists use this passage because Jesus says that “the harvest is the end of the age” and that “the end of the age” is when He will send out His angels to gather all of His people. The problem here is that they fail to pay close attention to what Jesus is saying. He says that He will send out His angels “and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace.” This is NOT a description of the Rapture, but a description of what Jesus does after His Second Coming.
This failure to pay close attention to the details of a passage is observed to be quite common in the passages that both mid and post-tribulationist’s efforts to support their respective views.
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Matthew 24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
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The post-tribulationist here interprets “the end” to mean the end of days, specifically, the very last day of the era (whichever era that is, because they never specify). However, seeing as how He is speaking about a time with no reference to the length of that time (He could have meant 100 years for all His disciples knew), this interpretation is untenable. The more likely interpretation, which has been true for the last 2,000 years since Christ’s ascension, is that he who endures to the end of his earthly life, will be saved.
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Matthew 24:15-28 seems to indicate a Post-Tribulation Rapture, for Jesus stated the things believers would see. How would they see if not present?
[https://www.crosswalk.com/special-coverage/end-times/is-a-pretribulation-rapture-biblical.html]
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Let’s see if that is indeed what Christ speaks about…
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Matthew 24:15-28 15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
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So, Jesus does say to look for specific things so that we can know when the end is near…yet again we must understand – which mid and post-tribulationists reject – that Jesus here is mainly addressing world events from the perspective of Israel, not the church. This is why He says to watch for these things, not for the church’s sake, but for the Jews’ sake. Everything that He says in this passage pertains to Israel, not the church, and not the world. The author asks at the end of the quote, “How would they see if not present?” A simple question to answer for one who knows how to read and interpret Scripture; everything Jesus speaks of here has to do with Israel and the Jews…remember, the Tribulation period is “the time of Jacob’s trouble,” not the church’s trouble.
It is the weeding out and purifying of those Jews who desire God, the Tribulation period is ALL about Israel and punishing sinners, it has nothing to do with the church. Since it is all about Israel and punishing sinners, Jesus is telling Jews what to look out for, that is why He says to those who will be living in Judea at that time to flee to the mountains, and other exhortations. He is not talking to people in New York, Peking, Moscow, or anywhere else; He is talking specifically to the Jews in Israel.
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Matthew 24:29-31 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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This is what one post-tribber says…
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Proof #3:
Jesus speaks of the gathering (rapture) here…
[http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/rapture_proofs.html]
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First and foremost, what are the descriptors of the Rapture event, and what are the descriptors of the Second Coming? When we examine these things again, Mat. 24:29-31 does NOT describe the Rapture but the Second Coming of Christ. While Jesus does indeed speak of a gathering, it is not the Rapture of the church. Remember that the Tribulation is all about Israel, not the church; the gathering up of “His elect” is not Christians, but Jews…
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Romans 11:28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.
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There is the “elect” that are Jews, and then there is the “elect” who are in Christ; once a Jew gets saved and enters into Christ, he is no longer a “Jew” but a child of God. There is a clear Scriptural difference between these two groups of the “elect” that both mid and post-tribbers deny in effort to support their contentions. Here is what another post-tribber says…
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When we consider all the NT passages which speak of a trumpet sounding in relation to the glorious Second Coming of Christ, there is excellent agreement among them, indicating that the same last trumpet is spoken of. In Matthew ch. 24, when Jesus speaks of this time, he says that immediately after the Great Tribulation, there will be awesome heavenly portents (v. 29), and he will then be “coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory, and he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds” (v. 30-31). This trumpet heralds the Lord’s Parousia (“coming” in v. 27), including the rapture (gathering of the elect), and we see that his angels are part of the catching up of the saints.
[http://worldview_3.tripod.com/tribchurch.html; The Church and the Post-Tribulation Rapture
– by R. Totten, MDiv – © 1997]
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Firstly, we have already demonstrated that Scripture differentiates between two entirely different parousias – the parousia of the Rapture event, and the parousia of the Second Coming…which one does Jesus address in this passage? Again, the only way to tell is by looking for the specific descriptors of each and lining them up to meet what is spoken of in the text. When we do this, what do we find? We find that Jesus is NOT addressing the Rapture here at all – He addresses the Second Coming and what He will do after He comes back and sets up His kingdom:
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Matthew 13:40-42 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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So, the gathering up of people by angels (which is NOT part of the Rapture event) in this passage is either God gathering up the scattered Jews from around the world and bringing them into Israel, or it is that which Jesus speaks of above – the gather up and casting out of all causes of sin and the disobedient to God. It is NOT the Rapture of the church, according to an in-depth study of the details of the passage.
Totten not only makes the very same mistake as the author above does, but he also makes the same mistake that other post-tribbers make in assuming that the “last trumpet” is the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11:15 – and that assumption has absolutely no basis in Scripture, nor support in Scripture, at all. Furthermore, “the day of the Lord” and “the Day of Yahweh” post-tribbers fail to differentiate, just as they do with the “elect.” Contrary to his claim that “there is excellent agreement among them, indicating that the same last trumpet is spoken of,” he is dead wrong.
The Day of Yahweh (the Day of the LORD in the OT Scriptures) is the time period of “the time of Jacob’s trouble,” known to us today as the Tribulation period; it is not a single event on a single day, which multitudes of Scriptures clearly demonstrate; it is a time period of wrath. The day of the Lord in the NT does NOT refer to the Tribulation period, but rather to the day of the Lord Jesus Christ – specifically, the day He comes to gather His people (Christians who are walking with God, NOT “His people” as in the Jews), translate the living, and take them to heaven. There is again here, in mid and post tribulation rantings, a failure to see clearly – when Paul says that Christ will come and “take us” out of the world, which “us” is he specifically referring to…Christians, or Jews?
Both are His people, but Paul labors in Romans 11 to clarify that there is a clear-cut difference between the Jew and the Christian. Christians have been grafted into the vine of relationship with God “in Christ,” but most Jews today are not in Christ – but they are still God’s elect because of Abraham. The Rapture has only to do with Christians, those who have accepted Christ’s sacrifice for their sins and have entered into, and are maintaining, their relationship with God in Christ through obedience to the dictates of God in His New Covenant in Christ.
The Rapture is specifically for the Church, but just as Gentiles have been grafted into Israel through Christ, so those Jewish Christians are also in Christ and will also be taken up in the Rapture, but Israel as a whole will not be…because God will work in them through world circumstances to bring them back to faith and relationship in and to Him. There is a difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming, just as there is a clear-cut difference in Scripture between the Day of Yahweh and the day of the Lord (Jesus).
When a person fails to make Biblical distinctions between two similar things, then they misinterpret Scripture, pervert its meaning from its intended meaning, and corrupt their take on doctrines of Scripture. This is the case here with this passage, and indeed, with practically every other passage post-tribulationists use in their effort to support their doctrine. Next…
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Matthew 24:43-44 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
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One of the post-tribulation people said this:
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Proof #1 of an exclusively Post-Trib Resurrection/Rapture:
Mt. 24:43-44 associates “Thief in the Night” with the post-trib coming of the Lord.
[http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/rapture_proofs.html]
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One of the things that trip people up about Matthew ch. 24, is that while Matthew writes his gospel in a chronological order, Jesus here is not giving us a chronological order of events in His answer. Someone will say, “What are you talking about!” If we are not trying to support our bias, but rather looking at what Jesus says in the ‘order’ that He gives them, it is obvious to the thinking person that He is not giving them in chronological order. From verse 3-14 He lists some specific events, and ends verse 14 with “and then the end will come.” Then He backtracks beginning in verse 15 with, “So when you see the abomination of desolation…” which, if the end has already come, then the abomination of desolation has already taken place, because it takes place before “the end.” Then down to verse 31 He says that when He comes, He will send out His angels to gather His elect from around the world into one place (and that place will be Jerusalem, or at least Israel), but a gathering up of people has to take place before “the end” does it not?
One key point here, is that this elect gathered by the angels are NOT translated, they are gathered by angels rather than – as the Rapture passages clearly teach – in the rapture the translation from flesh to spirit will take place and those raptured will fly up to Christ seemingly under their own power…angels do NOT gather those who are taken in the Rapture. Then, after this gathering by angels in verse 31, down beginning with verse 36 Jesus starts talking about a day and hour that no one will know but God only, and in this paragraph, He says that two will be in a field, one will be taken and the other left; and two will be grinding at a mill and one will be taken and the other left.
If the gathering already took place up in verse 31, then who is it that will be taken in this “gathering” in verses 40-41? There are a total of three (3) gatherings in the end times; (1) the church in the Rapture, (2) God’s elect after the Great Tribulation, and (3) the wicked out of the kingdom of God at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.
In answer to this person’s quote, supposing that “the thief in the night” pertains to Christ’s Second Coming, he doesn’t know what he is talking about. The thief in the night remark is found couched in the paragraph (out of the chronological order of the events in the entire chapter) addressing what could be considered an address touching upon the Rapture. Plus, the thief in the night semantic does not pertain to Christ being a thief, because He is coming for His own – it specifically addresses the fact that when He comes, it will be a surprise to humanity. It is the difference between you sitting down watching TV waiting for the pizza you ordered to be delivered, and you standing at the front door waiting for the pizza.
You are waiting for it either way, but in one instance when the doorbell or knock comes, it will take you by surprise – whereas if you are waiting at the door, it will not be a surprise. When He comes in the Rapture, it will be a quiet event, no one will know that it is about to take place, and no one will see what took place until after it happens and people from all over the world simply disappear from off the face of the earth.
Remember that the Second Coming will take place after the Great Tribulation, at the end of seven years. Anyone still alive at the end who has been keeping tally, will know that at the end of the seventh year Jesus will be coming back to establish His earthly kingdom – that day will only be a surprise to those who don’t know Scripture.
So…no, this passage does not point to an exclusive post-tribulation rapture, that is just another unsubstantiated claim made out of sheer biased presupposition. Next…
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Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
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This verse follows the same “end of the age” thinking on post-tribulation claims that we addressed earlier…specifically, what age? The age of the Gentiles? The age of the Tribulation period? The end of the world scenario? Exactly what age does Jesus mean here? At least in this verse we have a few more clues that we did not have in the last passage on the end of the age.
First, Jesus says “I am with you always, to the end of the age,” exactly how is Jesus with the believer “always?” Through the Holy Spirit, God and Christ are all present, living within the believer (unless that believer falls away from Christ and is no longer abiding in Him). The Trinity lives within the believer as long as he remains abiding in Christ – until the physical death of that person…or, until “the end of the age.” There are five passages that talk about the end of the age, and they are only found in the gospel of Matthew, when we bring them all together and study “the end of the age” as one statement…
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Matthew 13:39-40 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
Matthew 13:49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
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When it comes to examining Mat. 13:39-40, we must also look at the context:
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Matthew 13:36-43 36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
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First, remember the passages that address the translation of believers at the Rapture event, whether direct or indirect reference (I Cor. 15:50-54, I John 3:2). Remember the list of the differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming: angels do not fly around picking up the translated believers at the Rapture, they get translated to have bodies like Christ’s body and then apparently (from the wording of the text) fly to Jesus under their own power. Angels have nothing to do with the Rapture.
Above, we have angels flying around picking up – not believers, but the wicked…gathering up all the sinners and law-breakers out of Christ’s kingdom, which tells us that His kingdom has just come into the world, to last for a thousand years. According to Jesus in this passage, the age He addresses here, ends with His angels gathering sinners out of His new earthly kingdom. This is not the Rapture. Therefore, unless we find reason to state otherwise, every other mention of the phrase “the end of the age” should also mean this very thing – the angels gathering up sinners and casting them out of His kingdom. So, we have found the answer to that question! The next text is Mat. 13:49…
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Matthew 13:47-50 47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind. 48 When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous 50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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Here again, the end of the age is signaled by the angels gathering the wicked up and throwing them into the fiery furnace to presumably await judgment into the Lake of Fire. This is not the Rapture of the church, and the end of the age appears to be the same as with Mat. 13:36-43. Then, Mat. 24:3 is the question that the disciples were asking about, and then we have the final text, Mat. 28:20 where Jesus gives the Great Commission to the apostles, signing off with, “and I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” We must be careful when dealing with this verse…is Jesus really going to be with people who became a Christian and died in Christ, is He really going to “be with you” while you are in heaven? The simpleton answer is ‘yes’ because they will be in His presence – but that is not what I asked here.
As a believer, after your physical body dies, the Holy Spirit, God, and Christ will not be dwelling within you any longer; you will be in their presence in heaven, but we find no Scriptures telling us that God will continue to dwell within a person who was saved and then dies. Therefore, part of our answer here, unless the apostles were supposed to live until the Second Coming (and we know that is not it), is that Jesus will be with you until you either fall away from Him, or until you physically die and go to be with Him in heaven. It would be inconsistent of us to say that “the end of the age” in this verse is different from the “end of the age” that Christ addressed in the other passages – unless we find something in the text to suggest otherwise.
Another thing to take into view is that Matthew wrote his gospel specifically to, and for, Jews; just like Mark wrote specifically to the Romans; Luke wrote specifically to Theophilus; and John wrote to all peoples “so that you might believe.” The point here, is that we only find this phrase (“the end of the age”) in Matthew’s gospel, and who he wrote it to makes a difference in how certain terms and phrases are to be understood as to their intended meaning. Did Jesus mean to tell His apostles that He would be with them until the end of the age…when they would die 2,000 years before the same end of the ages above in the other passages?
Or, was He speaking not only to them, but to the church at large…that He would be with the church until the end of the age? In this specific passage, Jesus is talking to His disciples whom He was not sending out as His chosen Apostles – in short, He was talking to the church.
The next subject we will look at has to do with the phrase “on the last day…”
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John 6:39-40 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 11:24 Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
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Jesus Himself tells us plainly when He will be raising up His precious saints from the grave. Four times in John 6 Jesus states categorically that He will “raise” His people “up” at the “last day”. So this glorious Resurrection of those that are Christ’s will occur at the “last day”… Is our Lord Jesus trying to get a message to us here? If He saw fit to tell us four times in the one message that He will raise His people up at the “last day” then His Word on the matter should be final. And who would dare tamper with the message the Holy Spirit has so clearly laid out for us in the Holy Scriptures? Jesus tells us that the Resurrection of the righteous dead will occur at the ‘last day”. Therefore it must come at the end of the 7 year period at the tail end of Daniel’s 70th week. And therefore the Resurrection must be a Post-Tribulation event. It must come after the Great Tribulation.
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This is a similar issue to the “end of the age” scenario we just examined, only this time the key phrase is “on the last day” (and actually, there are five passages, not just four – John 12:48 also). Also, before we begin examining these, it is important to remember that the word “day” can mean a time period, or a simple 24 hour day, or an occasion; and this phrase is only found in John’s gospel. One thing we must not fall into, is the idea that both Paul and John were talking about one and the same day in their own specific terminology. In other words, the “end of the age” and “the last day” are not necessarily the same event (and we must not assume that they are unless we have good Scriptural reasoning to think so). And thus far, we do not.
Neither John 6:39-40, 6:44, or 6:54 give us any clues in either their texts or their contexts to what exactly day this “last day” is…therefore, to use them in claiming that “the last day” is anything at this point is to interject one’s biased presuppositions into the texts. There just is not anything in them to tell us what that “last day” actually is. We are justified in suggesting that the last day just might be the day of the First Resurrection (which has NOTHING to do with the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the Rapture event), but we have no way to prove it with Scripture. Surmising a link is one thing, being able to prove it is quite another…and that is what this author has done. He has assumed something that he cannot demonstrate and prove with actual Scriptural evidence; we will not be so bold as to follow in his footsteps…
Then we come to John 11:24 where Martha seems to give us a hint that Jesus does not negate or correct; “in the resurrection on the last day.” And then in John 12:48 we receive another clue…
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John 12:48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
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So, John records Martha linking “the last day” with “the resurrection,” and Jesus here links “the last day” with the judgment, where men will be judged according to what He taught the disciples to teach the church. Firstly, which resurrection does Martha reference: the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the Rapture event; the first resurrection of the righteous in Revelation 20; or the second resurrection of the damned? Obviously she does not mean the latter, so which of the first two is she talking about? Keep in mind that even Jesus’ followers did not understand everything that He taught them, because since Lazarus would be part of the ‘dead church’ in Christ at the Rapture event, then he will be resurrected along with the rest of the Bride of Christ at the Rapture…he will be resurrected long before the “first resurrection” comes along.
Yet this is not the “last day” is it? Not according to Jesus. Either Martha is confused, or we have here two “last days,” or we have a problem with a contradiction in Scripture. Seeing as how Peter was always sticking his foot in his mouth, and we do not believe that the Holy Spirit caused him to do so, but he spoke out of his own self, and seeing as how Scripture does not contradict itself, we choose to see that Martha misspoke out of her own misunderstanding of how eschatological events were to take place.
Another question that needs to be answered in order for us to make clear headway here, is do these resurrections take place within the same “age,” or do they take place in different ages? The resurrection of the righteous takes place 1000 years before the resurrection of the wicked, at the beginning of the age of the Millennial Kingdom; and then the resurrection of the wicked takes place after that 1000-year time period; but the resurrection at the Rapture event takes place before either of these. To which does Martha refer? Then, in 12:48 when Jesus says that His word will judge all men “on the last day,” but again…what “last day?” The last day of the world as we know it today…the last day of the Tribulation period…the last day of the Millennial kingdom…the last day of human life upon the earth before the new heavens and the new earth are made…which “last day?”
When we are honest about this topic, WE CANNOT TELL! There is not enough information given to us concerning this “last day” to be able to identify it with any accuracy, and (therefore) any claim as to what “last day” it means, is solely based upon one’s bias and presupposition without any collaborating evidence. If there was evidence, then it might be possible to dogmatically state with a high degree of probability – but as it stands thus far, there is not enough evidence. The passages with “the last day” cannot be used with any amount of truthfulness or honesty for claiming anything regarding either the Rapture of the church or the Second Coming. This author’s claims have been duly destroyed…
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1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
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This is what Totten has to say about this verse…
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In 1 Cor. 15:23, Paul brings out that the resurrection of believers in Christ will happen “at his Parousia” (“when he comes”). Then in 1 Thes. 4, where Paul describes the Parousia (“coming”) of the Lord (v.15), we read that this is the time of the saint’s resurrection and rapture (v.16,17). The resurrection and rapture of the saints (born again believers) is connected to and is part of the Parousia. Adding to this concept, historically, : “When a dignitary paid an official visit or parousia to a city in Hellenistic times, the action of the leading citizens in going out to meet him and escorting him on the final stage of his journey was called the apentesis…” (F.F.Bruce, in New Bible Commentary, ©’70, p.1159)(my emphasis). (Italics mine)… it is because of Christ’s catching up of believers into the air, followed by their meeting and escorting (apentesis) of him as he finishes his arrival to earth, that Paul says that Parousia (coming & arrival) of our Lord Jesus is “with all his holy ones,” as he descends to the earth.
[http://worldview_3.tripod.com/tribchurch.html; The Church and the Post-Tribulation Rapture
– by R. Totten, MDiv – © 1997]
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First of all, Totten tries to use the act of “apentesis” to link two different passages together so that it looks like they both address the same event (the other verse is I Thess. 3:13). This might work if he was not reading his bias into his interpretation of both these verses. The only way one can see an apentesis taking place in the Rapture or Second Coming event, is if you read it into the context of the passages; but when we do not do this (as we are not supposed to), then there is no evidence for an apentesis action to take place.
Unfortunately, while F. F. Bruce is correct, it does not apply here in this situation. When a visiting dignitary was coming to town, all of the citizens knew about it (at least those who were interested in his visit) and with foreknowledge of his coming – specifically when he would be arriving – they would gather together and lead the procession out to meet him and then return into the city with him. However, “no one knows the day or the hour” in this case, so no one will know when He is coming, they will not know when to gather, they will not know when to begin the march out to meet and greet Him. While it is a good effort on his part, Totten fails to fully examine all of the details of both Bruce’s quote or the Scriptures.
Second of all, Totten (like his peers) just cannot differentiate between the parousia of the Rapture event, and the parousia of the Second Coming. He confuses and combines these two separate events as if they were one and the same, and in doing so, he perverts the Scriptures.
He also assumes that the Rapture of the church will bring those who were still alive and translated into a glorified physical/spiritual body, who come up from the earth to meet the Lord in the air, would be “escorting…him as he finishes his arrival to earth.” In other words, nowhere in Scripture do we find that Christ will be escorted by raptured and resurrected human spirits back to earth, which Totten reads into all of this as the Rapture and then immediately following, the Second Coming. However, as we have demonstrated earlier, in the Rapture the living saints are translated and go up…and at the Second Coming, all those saints who died and are now in heaven, do NOT ascend into the air first to meet Christ and then hop onto horses and follow Him down to the earth.
We read nowhere that they go up, jump on horses, and then escort Jesus down to step upon the mountain and split it in two. At the Second Coming, the saints are observed already in the air right behind Jesus, riding their horses coming down out of the clouds. It makes absolutely no sense for the church to be raptured just to come right back down again…and it makes even less sense given the evidence of what these Scriptures actually teach. Thirdly, let us look at the context of the current verse under consideration…
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1 Corinthians 15:20-24 20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
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So, a couple of things here; first, Paul is definitely speaking about the dead in Christ here, he is not talking about the Rapture at all. Just because he says that Christ is coming, that coming is not clearly identified as to whether it is the Rapture or Second Coming. He says that Christ has been raised from the dead as the firstfruits of those who have died in Him in verse 20; then in verse 23 he matches them up again with “Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.” Since he is continuing along the same topic – the dead in Christ that are obviously His – it is consistent with his statements that here he employs the idea of those same dead saints. So, at His coming, according to this passage, He will bring with Him the dead in Christ…this is not the Rapture.
Then, in verse 24, he says “THEN comes the end…” Chronologically, then, according to this passage, Christ will come with His own (here, those who died in Christ) and after He comes, THEN the end will come afterward. And the “end” in verse 24 comes after the Millennial kingdom, where Jesus puts down into submission all of the heathen nations that survived the Great Tribulation.
He brings them all under His power and authority, and then afterwards “delivers the kingdom to God the Father.” This is after the Millennial kingdom of Christ. One of the questions we must ask here, is what event does “his coming” mean; the Rapture or the Second Coming? By the sound of everything here, this is addressing the Second Coming of Christ, because after He comes with His own THEN “comes the end.”
At the Rapture of the church, both the dead in Christ are resurrected, and the living are translated, and both are taken to heaven at the same time; while “the firstfruits” and those who belong to Christ seem to be addressing those who previously died and were resurrected, since the theme of this entire passage is the resurrection, not the Rapture or Second Coming. This verse/passage has nothing to offer the Rapture/Second Coming discussion, there is not enough pertinent information in the context here to be able to make an informed conclusion on the matter.
Someone will undoubtedly say here, “Why do you keep assuming that there are two different events and not one and the same event?” A very good question, one that I would also ask if I were a post-tribber… The answer has been given now at least twice – the outline of the differences between the two events, which are almost completely opposite of one another. One event clearly outlines certain things that will take place, while another event gives almost the exact opposite of things – you cannot have both light and darkness in one place at the same time; you cannot be both alive and dead at the same time; you cannot be both watching TV and driving your vehicle at the same time, etc.
If you have one singular event described, the descriptions of that event cannot have opposing and antagonistic circumstances at the same time. When we look at those descriptors, it should be clear to anyone not allowing their bias to run their brains, that we are looking at two entirely different events here, not one. Therefore, I do not assume that there are two different events (the Rapture and the Second Coming), Scripture is clear that they are two different events.
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1 Corinthians 15:51-52 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
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Here is what one post-tribber says about the passage above:
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Proof #2:
1 Cor. 15:51-52 indicates that there will be a resurrection and a rapture at the last trumpet. Paul uses the word “we” indicating that resurrection and rapture will be that which he and the Corinthians would partake. The last trumpet in Revelation is the 7th trumpet of Rev. 11:15, which is post trib. This disproves the pre-trib rapture, unless we are to believe that the resurrection corresponding to that rapture would not include the early church.
[http://www.bcbsr.com/survey/rapture_proofs.html]
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This person has some real issues with how he ‘studies’ Scripture, but I am more inclined to believe that, like others we have already examined, he allows his bias to dictate his interpretations, because a person’s bias keeps them blind to what Scripture actually does state. For example, here we have the last trumpet mentioned from the above passage, and this author equates (with absolutely no supporting documentation at all) this trumpet with the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments, and claims that this seventh trumpet “is post trib,” thus – in his mind – “disproves the pre-trib rapture.” However, this author fails to understand that the seventh trumpet of the trumpet judgments, is NOT “post-trib,” the bowl judgments must follow them just as Scripture clearly teaches, and the bowl judgments are part and parcel of the Tribulation period. Furthermore, there is one other trumpet that sounds after the seventh trumpet of judgment that we are told about in Scripture, and it is found here…
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Matthew 24:30-31 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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According to conservative chronology, this trumpet that calls the angels to the task of gathering the Jews from the four corners of the earth, takes place AFTER the seventh trumpet of judgment in Revelation 11. And again, keep in mind that Mat. 24:31 addresses Israel as the elect, not the church; therefore, this is not the Rapture…neither does it “disprove” the pre-tribulation rapture theory. Here is what Totten claims about this passage:
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…in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul writes of the time of the believer’s resurrection and change to a new, spiritual body (v. 51-52). At the time of the believer’s resurrection, we again read that there will be a trumpet sounded…but Paul adds here that it is the last trumpet…which coordinates perfectly with the passages in Revelation, which we will consider next.
[http://worldview_3.tripod.com/tribchurch.html; The Church and the Post-Tribulation Rapture
– by R. Totten, MDiv – © 1997]
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First, the trumpet that Paul talks about in this text does not “coordinate perfectly” with any passage in Revelation; this is again a claim made without any kind of actual Scriptural support whatsoever, and this is a repeated falsity throughout the mid and post-tribulation rapture theories, as we shall see as we continue. This “last trumpet” falls into the same problem that “the last day” has…which “last trumpet,” because according to Scripture there are many trumpets sounding at different times, some that are singular, and some that come in a series. Furthermore…
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The word for “last” in 1Co. 15:52 is not hústerē (G5305), hindermost, final or closing, but eschátē (G2078), the latest, not in the process of time but pertaining to the events spoken of. This trumpet then is not necessarily the final trumpet.
[The Word Study NT Dictionary; Spiros Zodhiates; electronic edition]
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In Mat. 24:31 the Lord speaks of God sending His angels with a great sound of a trumpet. They shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is not called the last trumpet, yet it follows the Great Tribulation of Matthew Mat. 24:29…This is actually the last trumpet although not called such.
[The Word Study NT Dictionary; Spiros Zodhiates; electronic edition]
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Next…
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1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep,that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
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This is what one post-tribber says about the above passage:
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1 Thess chapters 4 and 5 associate the “Thief in the night” coming with the Day of the Lord and with the Rapture which Paul anticipated for himself and the Thessalonians, were they to live that long. Now unless there are two “thief in the night” days of the Lord, this proves not only that there will be a post-trib rapture, but also proves that there can be no pre-trib rapture, unless we believe Paul and the Thessalonians are excluded from that resurrection and rapture. Besides there being no scriptural evidence of two “thief in the night” days of the Lord, both taking people by surprise, if there were two then the first would have already alerted people to the circumstances. Thus it seems reasonable that there would only be one such coming of the Lord. thus since there is such a day associated with his post-trib coming in Mt 24, this disproves a pre-trib rapture.
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I will give this person one point, because he is correct in stating that there is no evidence of two “thief in the night” comings of the Lord, but where he rides off out into left field (error) is in assuming (for the sake of his bias, no other reason that he gives) that what Paul addresses in I Thess. 4:13-18 and 5:1-3 is the Second Coming – because he does not address the Second Coming in either passage.
Again, how do we know this? Because we pay attention to, and look for, the descriptors of both events in the context of the verses; those descriptors are different from one another, they are not the same. In fact, the only thing they both have in common is that Christ comes in the clouds – as a matter of cold, hard, fact, there is not even the sounding of a trumpet at the Second Coming! There is one that sounds the signaling of the Rapture event, but the trumpet that practically every mid and post-tribber says is the same trumpet in Mat. 24:31 comes AFTER the Second Coming. Read the passage again…
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Matthew 24:29-31 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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Christ comes first in verse 30, and then after He comes, “he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call…” This is not the same trumpet that calls the Rapture into action. Christ must first return, step upon the Mount of Olives and split it into two halves making a great valley in its place (Zec. 14:4) and then set up His millennial kingdom, and then He sends out His angels to gather from under heaven all of the displaced Jews from around the world. He has to have a kingdom before He can gather them all unto Himself, just as Scripture tells in numerous places. The problem here, as with most post-tribulationists, is that they cannot seem to distinguish the differences between the descriptions and descriptors of the Rapture and Second Coming – and they cannot, because if they do, then all “evidence” for a post-trib rapture does down the toilet.
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2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming.
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Post-tribulationists use this verse to say that this verse talks about the Second Coming, and for that much they are correct – but only this verse in the context of verses 1-8; the other verses talk about the Rapture and things surrounding that event. This verse does not cause verses 1, 2, or 3 to address the Second Coming, which is what they use verse 8 for.
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Revelation 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”
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Here is what Totten claims regarding this verse:
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As John describes the tribulation period just before the Second Coming, in Revelation 8:6 through 11:15, he writes that seven trumpets will sound. When we read the contents of the seventh (or last) trumpet in Rev. ch. 11, we read of loud voices declaring that “the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever” (v. 15)… This…pinpoints Christ’s glorious Second Coming as taking place at the sounding of the seventh trumpet in this series of trumpets. This is the last trumpet, just as Paul had said in 1 Corinthians 15. The agreement here is good.
[http://worldview_3.tripod.com/tribchurch.html; The Church and the Post-Tribulation Rapture
– by R. Totten, MDiv – © 1997]
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First, the blowing of the seventh trumpet does not mean – in any way, shape, or form – that this is the moment of the Second Coming. Evidently Totten knows little to nothing when it comes to covenants or the Adamic covenant. There are still seven bowls of the wrath of God to be poured out upon the world, God will not pour out His wrath upon His own kingdom! The Adamic covenant (referred to in Genesis 1:26 and Hosea 6:7) was the covenant of lease “over all the earth” that when Adam deliberately chose to sin against God in favor of Eve, he unintentionally handed that covenant of lease over to satan, which we also hear about here…
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Luke 4:5-8 5 And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, 6 and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. 7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.” 8 And Jesus answered him, “It is written, “‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and him only shall you serve.'”
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Here, we are told that all of the kingdoms of the world, symbolizing the whole earth itself, had been delivered into satan’s hand – the whole world belongs to him right now legally, because Adam failed to follow the legal mandate God gave him, and “legally” handed the world over to satan. That covenant lease is still active today, and does not come to its time-mandated end until Rev. 11:15 at the blowing of the seventh trumpet. Notice in Rev. 11:17 that the elders say that God has just “begun to reign.” The idea that God causes everything to happen that does happen, is pure falsehood, based upon the erroneous Calvinistic false doctrinal twist upon the sovereignty of God.
Christ beginning to reign does not mean that He begins setting up His millennial kingdom (immediately following the Second Coming), particularly since between this verse (under discussion) and the Second Coming and subsequent setup of the Millennial Kingdom are separated by seven bowls of judgments yet still to come.
And again…
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The word for “last” in 1Co. 15:52 is not hústerē (G5305), hindermost, final or closing, but eschátē (G2078), the latest, not in the process of time but pertaining to the events spoken of. This trumpet then is not necessarily the final trumpet.
[The Word Study NT Dictionary; Spiros Zodhiates; electronic edition]
In Mat. 24:31 the Lord speaks of God sending His angels with a great sound of a trumpet. They shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. This is not called the last trumpet, yet it follows the Great Tribulation of Matthew Mat. 24:29. It concerns the elect of the Tribulation period who responded to God’s heavenly witnesses of Revelation 7. This is actually the last trumpet although not called such.
[The Word Study NT Dictionary; Spiros Zodhiates; electronic edition]
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As Zodhiates demonstrates, the seventh trumpet of the series of trumpets of wrath and judgments is NOT the last trumpet mentioned chronologically in eschatology – the trumpet that is sounded to signal the angelic hosts to gather all of the Jews from around the world and bring them to Israel is the “last trumpet.”
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Revelation 14:14-20 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped. 17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.
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Richard Perry claims…
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These accounts [Rev. 14:14-20, Mat. 24:29-31] of the Resurrection and Rapture clearly state that the elect (believers) will be gathered together by the angels when Christ comes in the clouds in great power and glory. These passages describe the elect being gathered from the four winds of the earth and from the heavens. The dead in Christ are gathered from heaven and those left alive are gathered from the earth.
[Richard Perry; http://www.lastdaysmystery.info/the_post_tribulation_rapture.htm%5D
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As we have discussed earlier from another person’s erring interpretation, the elect in Mat. 29-31 are NOT Christians, they are Jews that have been scattered around the world through time that did not get the chance to get back to Israel before the Tribulation period started, and were then trapped, as it were, “behind enemy lines.” As we have repeatedly demonstrated a number of times in this study alone, Jesus answers His disciples’ questions as it had to do with Israel, not the church, because everything that takes place in the Tribulation period has to do with the time of Jacob’s trouble – it has nothing to do with the church, which is why God takes the church out of the world before the time of Jacob’s trouble begins.
Furthermore, the text clearly states that Christ sends out His angels to gather the elect – and as we have previously demonstrated over and again before in this study – angels are NOT part of the Rapture of the church, not in any rapture passage we have looked at. The ONLY event that has angelic participation, is both the gathering of Jews to bring them back into Israel, and then the gathering of the wicked out of Christ’s kingdom. Nothing, and nowhere, do angels have anything to do with the Rapture event, aside from the singular angel blowing the trumpet as signal to begin those respective events.
As has been mentioned numerous times in this study, the main problem with post-tribulationists is their failure to make differentiation between the Rapture event and the Second Coming. They refuse to pay attention to the details of the passages that they claim represent one or the other, and they refuse to pay attention to the descriptors of both events, which are markedly opposite of one another on every count but one – Jesus coming in the clouds. Clouds, it seems, blind them to all else these passages describe…because of their bias and failure to commit themselves to study of God’s Word according to a complete Biblical hermeneutic.
We have one more section to cover as has to do with the Post-Tribulation Rapture theory, an in-depth critique of “The Post-Tribulation Rapture,” by William Arnold III, 1999…but it is long, so I will have to break this off here and post at least part of that review in my next post.
Blessings!
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New Covenant Understanding 